By David Morse, 11 October 2024
On the 4th of October, 2004 a fatal fire raced through CHICOUTIMI as she was en route to Canada. The Irish Navy was the first to respond and ironically it was the Irish Examiner which has remembered the incident, publishing the following article.
"Twenty years after the incident there are no plans by either the Canadian Government or navy to commemorate the courage of the Chicoutimi crew or to honour Lt Saunders. Something which rankles with the President of the Canadian Veterans Association" [see the article at https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41488778.html] I think that says it all.
14 thoughts on “HMCS Chicoutimi – We Remember”
Hello David. I am both saddened and angry at what our government has done, and not done, about the Chicoutimi disaster of October 6, 2004! I still remember that day very well. This was a very sad saga in the life of the RCN and should have at least been recognized by the government of the past by then PM Jean Chretien and the MND Bill Blair and PM of today, Justin Trudeau. To not even acknowledge the 20th anniversary of the “incident” from this government and others, is a travesty for our fallen comrade Lt Saunders, his family and the brave crew of HMCS Chicoutimi. This is unforgivable! At least when the HMCS Kootenay explosion happened on October 23rd 1969 (I remember that day as well, as a newly minted Ordinary Seaman in the RCN), the then Prime Minister, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, commissioned three new bravery decorations: Crosses of Valour, Stars of Courage and Medals of Bravery which were then awarded to the brave men’s families of the ones that perished and those that survived. Why couldn’t Justin Trudeau do the same as his “daddy” did? It seems that the present government does not want the Canadian public to be reminded of the shameful and controversial submarine deal. The article shows exactly what happened on that eventful day in 2004 by the Irish press, was well written, and told a dreadful tale. The bravery that was realized on that cold October day by not only the brave men of the Chicoutimi, but also the Irish fishermen of the “Western Endeavour” (who were first on-scene), the Irish Naval Service (INS) and the Royal Navy (RN) was outstanding and should also be recognized by this government! Does the government want to bury the past and make like it never happened to gain some form of “washing their hands” of it all? Let us get on with this long over-due recognition for the sake of both Lt. Saunder’s widow, Debbie Sullivan, and the crew of HMCS Chicoutimi, and right this wrong! I have been so proud to serve in the RCN for over 41 years but am now so ashamed at my own government then and now! THANK GOODNESS FOR THE IRISH!!
You can be saddened and angry all you want, but the RCN certainly does remember. The entire crew and boat was honored in 2005. Chris Saunders’ mother was the Silver Cross mother in 2020. Certainly there was more ceremonies over that time.
This was sent from the commander of the RCN this year.
HMCS Chicoutimi Fire 20th Anniversary Commemoration
Twenty years ago on October 5, 2004, during emergency repairs off the coast of Ireland, a fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi claimed the life of Lt(N) Chris Saunders and caused numerous and long-lasting injuries among those who served in the submarine.
To Chris’s family and friends, we extend our deepest sympathies. For those of you who served with him, we share in your loss and acknowledge the profound impact that this event has had on each of you.
Today, we mark the courage of the crew as they braved the smoke and fought the fire. Their efforts, and indeed, the efforts of all who supported them, either then or back home, should be seen as testament to our resilience and a stark reminder of the dangers faced by our sailors in service of our country.
Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee
Commander Royal Canadian Navy
Unfortunately over the years in peacetime we have sailors get washed over the side and drown, die in fires, die in dive accidents, helo crashes, plane crashes, gun explosions, suicides and the list goes one. Certainly the Irish should be commended for their service. Each and everyone is important to the RCN but unfortunately not able to have the type of remembrance that people demand.
Ted. I did not say that the RCN has forgotten what has happened. The RCN can have all the ceremonies it wants to remember what happened 20 years ago. And that’s a good thing. The Commander of the RCN has sent a message commemorating the tragedy on the 20th anniversary, and I am pleased to see that he did that. However, there have been no ‘tangible efforts’ put forward by the government now or in the past to properly express how most Canadians feel or to even say “we are sorry” for what happened! Even Derick Spears has said as much. Although this government would like to pretend that it never happened, and JT would rather see the whole submarine service just go away, that will never happen!!! When other countries involved in the ‘incident’ have the respect and remembrance to feel sorrow towards all Canadians after 20 years, with nothing from the government whatsoever, then it’s high time we send a message to express our disgust.
The government had nothing to be sorry for and if you contend like in the article in the Irish Times that the current government wants the submarine service to go away, it’s pure baloney. Successive governments have fully supported the current class of submarines since they bought them. If they wanted them gone, then they would have paid them off long ago. It was a tragic accident.
Thank God for a voice of reason!
Ubique,
Les
OK then Ted. As a civilian pro-government bureaucrat, I can see where your loyalties really lie. The government has no stomach for or concern about the progression of the CAF and never has, that is quite clear! I guess, we will just have to Agree To Disagree!!
I would have to agree that the buck on this tragic accident stops 1st and foremost with the government of the day as these subs were supposed to have been purchased in 1994 but that was put off until 1998 leaving the subs to deteriorate dockside.This lead to a dominos of errors that include the UK government, the Royal Navy, the dry dock that prepared the subs for seaworthiness to Canada but the crew who had to deal with the storm were unfairly blamed by leaving both hatches open to make things easier to make the temporary repair. That should have been caught while in drydock. That was not the crew of the submarine that was at fault.
Remember it well, it came across to us on our world at one broadcast while I was in the Gulf / Indian ocean area.
Reply to AllanNantes of 13 Nov 24.
Good morning,
So everyone is to blame except those who actually made the non-essential choice that let sea water into the submarine and caused the accident?
In that case, why stop at just the list of culprits that you provide?!?!
Seems like a post-truth approach to history and learning lessons.
Ubique,
Les
Hello Les. There was enough blame for everyone to go around on this one. The first blame, however, is most assuredly with the government of the time to allow this tragedy to happen in the first place. These British subs should never have been acquired to begin with! The government knew, or should have known, the condition of Chicoutimi at the time they decided to bring it back to Canada and should have been more proactive with the safety of the crew and these “subs” at the time. There were several ways to bring back Chicoutimi including hauling her back to Canada on a Cargo Lift Ship! Done all the time with no loss of life! Blame the CO of Chicoutimi if you like, which you seem to be implying, (although IMO he was only doing what COs do all the time-making decisions, only in hind-sight one can see it was a “deadly” one. But never blame the brave crew or any of the rescue personnel for doing their jobs!!!! Submarines by their very nature are always a “risky business” every time they put to sea and can be non-forgiving if something goes terribly wrong. Hopefully Canada’s next batch of boats will be nothing less than perfect and “world-class” for the safety of our sailors and those who sail in them!
Good afternoon David,
In your post you state: “The first blame, however, is most assuredly with the government of the time to allow this tragedy to happen in the first place. These British subs should never have been acquired to begin with! The government knew, or should have known, the condition of Chicoutimi at the time they decided to bring it back to Canada and should have been more proactive with the safety of the crew and these “subs” at the time.”
These are very sweeping and serious allegations.
In support of them, can you provide incontrovertible proof which minister(s) overrode the formal and categoric negative recommendations of the CAF and RCN leadership and personally instructed the navy instead to:
– buy these submarines (which had been repeatedly described in the military technical press as an excellent deal); and
– order HMCS Chicoutimi to cross the Atlantic under her own power after she had been fully refit by an accredited BRITISH shipyard.
If you are unable to provide this, perhaps we can all agree that a tragic set of decisions led to the captain’s order (which I am sure made sense at the moment) to open the hatches, while carrying out repairs, leading to the accident and its resultant death and injuries.
Ubique,
Les
Les. Yes, there was enough blame here to go around for everyone. But, in my own opinion, I do contend that most of the incompetence and blame resides with the political leaders of the government at the time. The ‘military technical press’ at the time was just expressing what the government wanted them to say and nothing more. I am not going to name names of Ministers or RCN/CAF personnel (as you seem to want me to) from the past. That does nothing to resolve anything and would be legally slanderous to say otherwise. What the RCN needed at that time was more political accountability and less ‘politics’! Remember the old adage “YOU ONLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR”. In this case, the truth sometimes hurts…yes?
Good morning David,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Saying that “most of the incompetence and blame rests with the political leaders” rather than the naval officers who advised them seems pretty rich to me.
I strongly doubt that the government imposed its technical judgment on the naval staff and forced it to buy submarines that it strenuously did not want.
I also guess that no-one understood at the time how badly the Brits had let the Upholder class degrade. This degradation showed up most in the oldest of the subs, which became HMCS Chicoutimi.
Ubique,
Les
While there is some blame to go around Canadian government penny pinching has to be right up there, along with fault on the crew.
Never Never Never do you ever have the main and lower fore end hatches open at any time while under way at sea. Unfortunately the crew failed to follow that basic rule and the net result was the fire and death of a sailor.
On top of this to blame the British Government for poor equipment is also slightly laughable because these boats were pretty much brand new. The British only put them up for sale due to budget cuts and going all nuclear, they also informed the Canadian government of the boats’ details and the Canadian government even did inspection tours.
The whole ‘we’ve been sold a pup of a submarine’ doesn’t really hold water. The problem was the Canadian government bought secondhand submarines that were barely used for a knock down price then decided to refit them in their own yards where the workers had no experience with these boats and basically told to get on with it.
Right there is the recipe for disaster.