By David Dunlop, 7 August 2024
The CSC class name has now been decided – the River class. This class of ship will be named after major Canadian rivers. The name choice of ship #15 could be either HMCS Columbia or HMCS Churchill. My personal choice would be HMCS Churchill as it flows entirely through the northern regions of 3 Western Canadian provinces (Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba), empties East into Hudson's Bay but is about 400 kms shorter than the Columbia River (2000 kms). Although the Columbia River starts in BC, through the Canadian Rockies, and has an RCN pedigree, a majority of that river crosses the international line into 2 northwestern US States (Washington & Oregon) and empties into the Pacific. Here is a list of names (including Batch 1 names) and possible side #s for Forum members to consider.
SHIP NAME SIDE #
1. HMCS FRASER DDGH-240
2. HMCS MACKENZIE DDGH-241
3. HMCS ST. LAURENT DDGH-242
4. HMCS OTTAWA DDGH-243
5. HMCS MARGAREE DDGH-244
6. HMCS ANNAPOLIS DDGH-245
7. HMCS ST. JOHN DDGH-246
8. HMCS YUKON DDGH-247
9. HMCS SASKATCHEWAN DDGH-248
10. HMCS ATHABASKA DDGH-249
11. HMCS KOOTENAY DDGH 250
12. HMCS ASSINIBOINE DDGH 251
13. HMCS WINNIPEG DDGH 252
14. HMCS SAGUENAY DDGH 253
15. HMCS CHURCHILL/COLUMBIA DDGH 254
15 thoughts on “What’s in a Name?”
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Realistically, it is like coming up with names for CPF 13-18.
David –
Are you sure about hull #12 (DDGH 251)? According to a previous media release:
“The Land-based Test Facility will be named HMCS Assiniboine after one of our most storied ships. The Assiniboine river does not flow into the ocean, a fitting name for this facility.”
https://www.canada.ca/en/navy/corporate/fleet-units/surface/river-class-destroyer.html
I hope you’re correct and that the RCN has re-considered squandering the name of one of our most storied ships on the test facility. (I repeat my suggestion to name the facility HMCS Bonaventure.)
Hello Barnacle Bill. Yes, I understood about Hartland Point facility being named HMCS Assiniboine, however, I do like the name change for Hartland Point to HMCS Bonaventure. It gives some “hope” and meaning to NFLD/LAB as well. Thanks for your input. Cheers!
Where do I start. HMCS Assiniboine won’t be used as a River Class name as the new Hartlen Point testing facility will be named HMCS ASSINIBOINE. Unlikely Ottawa or Winnipeg will be reused as we already have CPF’s with that name. I would add Nahanni and Terra Nova to round off your list.
Hello Ted. As I said to BB, the test facility at Hartland Point could be renamed HMCS Bonaventure, and would be a fitting tribute to our last carrier. The naming of HMCS Ottawa, Winnipeg and St. John as River class DDGH Destroyers could be used again after these Halifax Class Frigates were paid off. No harm in that. The appropriate Side #s could be fitted in with their build times. Should not be an issue.
Well this is fun.
I suggest avoiding names that are duplicates of frigate names, at least until after the current ships have retired. That rules out HMCS Ottawa, HMCS Winnipeg, and (not the same but too similar) HMCS St. John. Also, it was my understanding that the land-based test facility was to be given the name HMCS Assiniboine, so that name is out.
Some alternatives:
HMCS Niagara
HMCS Thompson (if they don’t mind being tributary to the Fraser)
and to compensate poor Manitoba for the loss of two names from the original list, how about
HMCS Red
HMCS Nelson
Hello Michael. As I said to both BB & Ted, The Naming’s of HMCS Ottawa, Winnipeg and St. John could be used again as each CPF was paid off. I had not considered HMCS Terra Nova as it was not a specific River class Destroyer (Restigouche Class) however I would be amiable to changing the name of HMCS Churchill/Columbia to HMCS TERRA NOVA after the Terra Nova River in NFLD & LAB to give both the East & West their own River class DDGH Destroyers. Makes more sense I guess. I would also change the name of the Hartland Point Test Facility to HMCS Bonaventure as Barnacle Bill has suggested to honour our last carrier. The Red River starts in the US and only 175 Kms of it is in Canada which flows through Lake Winnipeg (HMCS Red does not have a good ‘ring’ to it). Lake Winnipeg is fed by many rivers, including the Saskatchewan, Red, and Winnipeg rivers. The lake is drained to the northeast by the Nelson River into Hudson’s Bay (changing HMCS Winnipeg to HMCS Nelson could be an option but the Winnipeg River and Lake Winnipeg starts the whole river process. Leaving off Side #s for now, and in no particular order after the Batch I CSC River Class Destroyers, here is what I would suggest then for DDGH River class Destroyer names:
1. HMCS FRASER DDGH
2. HMCS MACKENZIE DDGH
3. HMCS ST. LAURENT DDGH
4. HMCS OTTAWA DDGH (When Halifax class HMCS OTTAWA IS “Paid Off”)
5. HMCS MARGAREE DDGH
6. HMCS ANNAPOLIS DDGH
7. HMCS ST. JOHN DDGH (When Halifax class HMCS St. John’s is “Paid-Off”)
8. HMCS YUKON DDGH
9. HMCS SASKATCHEWAN DDGH
10. HMCS ATHABASKA DDGH
11. HMCS KOOTENAY DDGH
12. HMCS ASSINIBOINE DDGH
13. HMCS WINNIPEG DDGH (When Halifax class HMCS Winnipeg is “Paid-Off”)
14. HMCS SAGUENAY DDGH
15 HMCS TERRA NOVA DDGH (When Halifax class HMCS St. John’s is “Paid-Off”)
“Hartland Point Test Facility”-HMCS Bonaventure
Also, if there ever were to be a CSC Test Facility built in Esquimalt BC, “HMCS Magnificent” could not be a better name as well. Cheers!
Hi All,
I would like to contribute to this discussion from the explicit viewpoint of honouring the RCN’s history while supporting its outreach to the Canadian population.
During the RCN’s 124 years of existence its ships have earned honours for 18 different battles and campaigns. Of these, 15 were awarded for actions during World War 2, while three are for post-war service (“Korea,” “Gulf and Kuwait,” and “Arabian Sea”). These battle honours, which are awarded to specific ship names, are a public recognition of the navy’s combat actions on behalf of Canada and the heroism and self-sacrifice of its officers and sailors. Assigning names that have been awarded multiple battle honours to the River-class destroyers would allow each ship to commemorate and honour numerous past Canadians’ exploits, heroism, and sacrifice.
It should be noted, though, that five of Canada’s World War 2 naval battle honours are essentially “non-reusable” in a peacetime navy with a limited number of warships, as they were won by vessels whose names have little or no pertinence to Canadians, being either:
– the name of a foreign country (HMCS Uganda);
– based on the first names of private Canadian citizens of no historical or national import (HMCS Prince David, Prince Henry, and Prince Robert);
– named for smaller Canadian communities (such as HMCS Lunenburg); or
– small craft that did not have a proper name but only had a numerical designator (such as M.L. 126).
An additional consideration when choosing ship names is the fact that, given Canada’s size and vast inland reaches, it is difficult for many Canadians to relate to the RCN’s actions and performance. Thus, it would be wise for the navy to use names for the River-class destroyers that are meaningful to as many Canadians as possible. This argues for having a set of names that includes rivers from across Canada and which are significant and relevant to the people in their area.
Therefore, I would like to suggest the following 12 names to go with the three announced on 28 June 2024:
– Kootenay – British Columbia – four battle honours, all from World War 2;
– Red Deer – Prairie provinces – one battle honour, from World War 2;
– Saskatchewan – Prairie provinces – three battle honours, all from World War 2;
– Qu’Appelle – Prairie provinces – three battle honours, all from World War 2;
– Nipigon – Ontario – two battle honours, both from World War 2;
– Niagara – Ontario – one battle honour, from World War 2;
– Ottawa – Ontario – five battle honours, four from World War 2 plus “Arabian Sea;”
– Chaudière – Quebec – three battle honours, all from World War 2;
– Saint John – Atlantic provinces – five battle honours, all from World War 2;
– Annapolis – Atlantic provinces – one battle honour, from World War 2;
– Terra Nova – Atlantic provinces – one battle honour, “Gulf and Kuwait;” and
– Yukon – The North – no battle honours.
When combined with the three already announced names, this list would result in the River-class destroyers having two names each from British Columbia, Quebec, and The North; three from Ontario; two shared ones for each of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba; and one each for Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, and New Brunswick. It would also allow nine of the RCN’s 13 “useable” battle honours to be recognized, including the two most recent ones. Finally, the suggested names would help the vast majority of Canadians from sea to sea to sea to have some connection with at least one serving warship.
Thus, giving the River-class destroyers the above names would help Canada to honour the RCN’s heritage of service and sacrifice while contributing to maintaining the vital link between Canadians and their navy.
Ubique,
Les Mader
Hello Les. I will give you HMCS QU’APPELLE. A fitting name for a CSC River Class Destroyer; and she has a historical pedigree as well! I should have known that as I sailed on HMCS QU’APPELLE (The Foxy Lady) when on the “Left Coast” in the early 1980s. The First QU’APPELLE (Ex HMS Foxhound-H69) was a British River Class Destroyer. HMCS NIPIGON was a Bangor Class Minesweeper built in Canada for the British WWII was effort. She was named for the Town of Nipigon ON. and was not a River class. The Second HMCS NIPIGON (DDH 266) was an Annapolis Class Destroyer and yes, was named after the Nipigon River in ON. so I may give you that one as well. HMCS NIAGRA (I-57) was an American Wickes Class Destroyer (DD-162) built in the US during WWII and later transferred to the RCN and re-commissioned as HMCS NIAGRA after the very small Niagra River (less than 100 kms long) but is not a major Canadian river so thus, I will have to deduct that one from your list. HMCS Chaudiere (DDE 235) was a Restigouche Class Destroyer Escort but was named after the Chaudiere River (185 kms long) in Quebec so that one could be a CSC River Class Destroyer candidate. Overall, some good options Les. Cheers!
Hi David,
I do not think that we should worry about why a name was previously used for a Canadian warship. Many names are given to multiple things. For example, Vancouver was originally used for a Canadian destroyer based on it being the name of an explorer. Subsequently, it has been used based on being the name of a city. In the future, it might be used based on being the name of an island. Therefore, we should simply accept that if a Canadian river has a name, that name can be used for a River-class destroyer regardless of where else it is used.
We have a different view of the significance of the Niagara River. For me, its significance is based on its place in history and current link to people, not its length.
Ubique,
Les
Hello again Les. The current government specifications for the naming of the CSC River class DDGHs are for all “major” Rivers within Canada. All other Canadian rivers are mostly tributaries that flow into these major rivers. And that’s what I have based my choices on for naming the CSC River class…as I see it anyway. Most, either CSC River or Halifax Class ships are based on major rivers or cities in Canada or both. The only exception would be HMCS ATHABASKA named after the Athabasca River in Alberta. It starts in the Columbia Icefield in Jasper National Park and flows more than 1,231 km (765 mi) before emptying into Lake Athabasca. Much of the land along its banks is protected in national and provincial parks, and the river is designated a Canadian Heritage River.
As well Les, HMCS Red Deer was also a Bangor Class Minesweeper built in Canada for the Canadian Navy WWII war effort but was not named after the Red Deer River but for the City of Red Deer so therefore cannot be classified as a River Class Destroyer. So I will have to dock you that one as well. Cheers!
Hi David,
We have two fundamental differences of viewpoint on this topic.
First, I am not worked up about the need for rivers to be ‘major’ to be eligible as a name for a River-class destroyer. That may have been an initial marketing spin when the first three names were announced. However, what does ‘major’ actually mean – length, water flow, watershed size, closeness to people, place in history, etc? Therefore, I am more interested in the history tied up in a name, its resonance with Canadians, and contribution to regional connection.
Secondly, RCN history is tied up in specific spellings of names. It is unimportant what ship types earned that history in the past.
Thus, I feel that the name of a shorter river that has earned much history and which flows near millions of Canadians is more worthy of being used than that of a river which is longer and flows into an ocean but which has no history and is not even known by most Canadians. The fact that other things – people, cities, provinces, etc. – also have that name is irrelevant.
Ubique,
Les
Hello Les. Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine. The fact that not all “major” Canadian rivers flow into an ocean, (be it Atlantic, Pacific or Arctic) does not disqualify them from “making the grade”. For example:
HMCS FRASER DDGH-The Fraser River is the longest river in British Columbia, rising at Fraser Pass near Blackrock Mountain in the Rocky Mountains and flowing for 1,375 kilometres (854 mi), into the Strait of Georgia just south of the City of Vancouver and eventually to the Pacific Ocean through the Strait Of Juan Da Fuca. The first HMCS Fraser was a British C class Destroyer (HMS Crescent-H48) and transferred to the RCN as HMCS Fraser. The second HMCS Fraser (DDH 233) was a St. Laurent class Destroyer named after the Fraser River. The third version of HMCS Fraser will be a first-of-class CSC River class DDGH named for the Fraser River as well.
2. HMCS MACKENZIE DDGH-Longest River system in Canada; flows into the Arctic Ocean through 5 Canadian Province tributaries and the NWTs through Great Slave Lake and onwards to the Arctic Ocean.
3. HMCS ST. LAURENT DDGH-Flows from the Great Lakes in Ontario & Quebec and has been known as “the largest Estuary in the world” and used by both Native Canadians and explorers for centuries. It flows to the Gulf Of St. Lawrence and then into the Atlantic Ocean.
4. HMCS OTTAWA DDGH. It is one of Canada’s major rivers and flows through both Quebec and Ottawa River Valley and drains into the St. Laurent River has been used as a major trade route by Native Canadians for centuries. The most recent HMCS Ottawa (FFH 341-Halifax class is still in commission. HMCS OTTAWA DDGH River Class Destroyer would be the first destroyer named after the Ottawa River.
5. HMCS MARGAREE DDGH-A River in Cape Breton in N.S. derived from the Cape Breton Highlands and flows north to empty into the Gulf of St. Laurence at Margaree Harbour. The Margaree has been well known for over a century for its trout and Atlantic salmon sport fishery, that draws anglers from near and far and where the Atlantic Salmon go to spawn every year. It was where the Acadians first settled during the 18th Century at the mouth of the river. The first HMCS Margaree, a WW II Canadian Destroyer was named after this river. The second HMCS Margaree (EX British “D” class Destroyer. The third HMCS Margaree (DDH 230) was a St. Laurent class named after the Margaree River. HMCS MARGAREE DDGH River class Destroyer would be the fourth named for this river.
6. HMCS ANNAPOLIS DDGH-From the river’s source in Caribou Bog to the Annapolis Basin, it empties into the Bay of Fundy to the Atlantic Ocean. It runs through the Annapolis Valley in N.S. through the most productive agricultural lands in the province. The first HMCS Annapolis was a US Town class destroyer (USS Mackenzie-I04) transferred to the RCN during WW II. The second version of HMCS Annapolis (DDH 265) was a first-of-class commissioned in 1964 and named for the Annapolis River. . HMCS ANNAPOLIS DDGH would be the third-of-class to be named after the Annapolis River in N.S.
7. HMCS ST. JOHN DDGH-It is Eastern Canada’s longest river flowing through the Notre Dame Mountains in Northern New Brunswick to the NW shore of the Bay of Fundy and into the Atlantic Ocean. HMCS ST. JOHN DDGH would be the first-of-class named after the St. John River in New Brunswick.
8. HMCS YUKON DDGH-A major river flowing from British Columbia and named for the Yukon Territory and the Yukon River. It also flows to the state of Alaska and empties into the Bering Sea. The first HMCS YUKON was a Mackenzie Class (DDE-263) and was named after the Yukon River. HMCS YUKON-CSC River class DDGH Destroyer would be the second ship named for the Yukon River.
9. HMCS SASKATCHEWAN DDGH-A major Canadian river formed by the joining of both the North and South Saskatchewan Rivers just east of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, to Lake Winnipeg. It flows roughly eastward across Saskatchewan and Manitoba to empty into Lake Winnipeg. There were 2 ships named for the Saskatchewan river. The First HMCS Saskatchewan Was a WW II “F” CLASS British Destroyer HMS Fortune (H70) and was renamed HMCS Saskatchewan in May of 1943. The Second was a Mackenzie Class (DDE 262) and also named after the Saskatchewan river. HMCS SASKATCHEWAN DDGH would be the third-in-class named after the Saskatchewan River.
10. HMCS ATHABASKA DDGH-A major Canadian river that originates in Jasper National Park, in Lake Providence at the toe of the Columbia Glacier within the Columbia Icefield, draining into the Peace-Athabasca Delta near Lake Athabasca. Much of the land along its banks is protected in national and provincial parks, and the river is designated a Canadian Heritage River for its historical and cultural importance. From there, its waters flow north then joins the Peace River to form the Slave River, which empties into the Great Slave Lake and discharges through the Mackenzie River system into the Arctic Ocean. This was the only vessel not named for the Athabaska River but was a Canadian Tribal Class Destroyer built in Halifax N.S. during WW II in honour of the native Canadia Athabaskan Tribe. The second HMCS ATHABASKAN (DDE 219) was also built in Halifax in 1942. The third HMCS ATHABASKAN (DDGH 282) was also built in Halifax in 1972 again to honour the Athabaskan native Canadian Tribe as a “Tribal Class” Destroyer. HMCS ATHABASKA would be the first CSC River Class Destroyer named after the Athabaska River.
11. HMCS KOOTENAY DDGH-A major river of the Northwest Plateau in southeastern British Columbia. The first HMCS Kootenay was the ex. HMS Decoy a “D” class Destroyer and commissioned as HMCS Kootenay in 1943. The second HMCS Kootenay (DDE 258) was named after the Kootenay River. HMCS KOOTENAY DDGH would be the second ship named for the Kootenay River.
12. HMCS ASSINIBOINE DDGH-A major river starting in Eastern Saskatchewan and flowing through the community of Kelvinton SK then through Brandon Manitoba; then around Portage La Prairie through the Red River Valley Plain and then joining the Red River at “The Forks” in Winnipeg MB. HMCS Assiniboine (I18) was a river class Destroyer during WW II. The second HMCS Assiniboine (DDH 234) was a St. Laurent class also named after the Assiniboine River as well. HMCS ASSINIBOINE DDGH would be the third-in-class named after the Assiniboine River.
13. HMCS WINNIPEG DDGH-The Winnipeg River is a major Canadian river that flows roughly northwest from Lake of the Woods in the province of Ontario to Lake Winnipeg in Manitoba. The first HMCS Winnipeg was an Algerine class mine sweeper served during WW II. The second HMCS Winnipeg is a Halifax class FFH 338 still in commission. The First-ship-in-class would be HMCS WINNIPEG CSC River class DDGH yet to be built and would be named after the Winnipeg River.
14. HMCS SAGUENAY DDGH-A major Canadian river flowing through Quebec from Lac-St. Jean to the city of Saguenay and emptying into the St. Lawrence River. The first HMCS Saguenay (D79) was an A class Destroyer for the RCN during WW II. The second HMCS Saguenay (DDH 206) was commissioned in 1956 and was named after the Saguenay River. HMCS SAGUENAY DDGH would be the second ship named after the Saguenay River.
15 HMCS TERRA NOVA DDGH-A major river within the province of Newfoundland & Labrador and drains an area in the centre of the island of Newfoundland, discharging into Bonavista Bay and the Atlantic Ocean. The Terra Nova River passes through the northern end of Terra Nova National Park, which derives its name from the river. The ship’s badge honoured the Terra Nova River. The river also has a healthy run of Atlantic Salmon. HMCS TERRA NOVA (DDE 259) was a Restigouche class guided missile class Destroyer in her final refit configuration. She was the sixth ship of her class and the first Canadian war ship to bear the name of the Terra Nova River. HMCS TERRA NOVA DDGH would be the second-in-class to bear the name of the Terra Nova River.
I will leave it to other Forum members to decide if these Rivers are indeed worthy of these CSC DDGH River class names. Cheers!